Elyzabeth Gregory Wilder: Welcome to Educating Theatre, a podcast concerning the observe and pedagogy of theatre schooling produced for HowlRound Theatre Commons, a free and open platform for theatremakers worldwide. I am your host, playwright and theatre Professor Elyzabeth Gregory Wilder.

Welcome again to the Educating Theatre podcast at HowlRound. As we speak we’re actually excited to be speaking about work ethic and work-life stability. To affix us at this time, we’ve Marcus Lane, who’s an affiliate professor of theatre and head of actor coaching on the College of Montevallo in Alabama. He teaches motion, stage, fight, performing, and directing.

Marcus, thanks for becoming a member of us at this time.

Marcus Lane: Thanks for having me. I actually respect it.

Elyzabeth: And at this time we’ve Jennifer Blackmer. Jennifer Blackmer’s performs have been seen in productions throughout the nation, together with Human Terrain, the stage adaptation of Margaret Atwood’s Alias Grace, and Predictor, which concluded a nationwide rolling world premiere this spring. She’s a professor within the Division of Theatre and Dance at Ball State College the place she’s taught for twenty years. Jennifer, thanks a lot for being right here.

Jennifer Blackme: I am completely happy to be right here, Elyzabeth. Thanks for the invitation.

Elyzabeth: So on this episode, we will be speaking about work ethic and work-life stability, however so as to actually speak about these points, we additionally I feel have to begin by speaking a bit of bit about psychological well being. So I might like to verify in with you guys. What sort of psychological well being challenges are you seeing your college students going through today, particularly popping out of the pandemic?

Jennifer: Okay, so one of many issues I’ve observed within the numerous sizes of lessons I’ve taught—I’ve taught massive lessons for our first-year college students along with our smaller lessons with the playwriting studios and people sorts of issues—our college students are battling anxiousness. They are surely. And I do know that school is an anxious time to start with, and it at all times has been. And over the course of my profession, I’ve recommended college students and labored with them on methods to stability their anxiousness and their must do effectively in a enterprise that’s actually aggressive and really difficult to navigate and requires a ton of proactivity, if you’ll. The scholars really want to step up and do the work and inspire themselves to do it.

It is troublesome to stability that, I feel, now on this period the place there may be a lot different stuff that they’ve to consider along with making an attempt to determine what sort of an artist they’re and making an attempt to determine what they need to say with their work, whether or not it is performing or writing, along with these struggles which have at all times been with us proper from time immemorial, now we’ve this exterior sense of, I do not need to say doom, as a result of that is actually… I imply that is actually pessimistic, however in a means I see my very own children battling it as effectively.

I am the mom of three youngsters, and now that they’re of faculty age, it is all form of coming collectively, and my parenting instincts kick into play with my college students as effectively. So there’s simply this common sense of hysteria, virtually just like the amplifier is turned as much as eleven, and there is this type of hum within the background of every part that they are making an attempt to attain as school college students, proper? They’re studying who they’re; they’re studying what they need to say and how much artists they need to be. And as well as, it is virtually as if these exterior pressures that they are listening to within the media and on social media and from their friends and different lecturers are all type of converging into this anxiousness stew, I assume, and that’s completely different for the reason that pandemic, I feel.

Elyzabeth: Marcus, what are you seeing together with your college students?

Marcus: Nicely, I feel one of the vital attention-grabbing issues to me is I feel I might name it virtually like a checkbox mentality, that it is this actually this concept that there is just one reply, and I must have the best reply, and that is the one reply that exists, and so I am simply going to get this one factor, after which that is carried out—I do not ever have to fret about it once more. And I feel that presents some issues when within the instructing surroundings we’re going, “Nicely, that is a reply or an reply. There’s really a number of methods to get to the place you need to go, and that is the inventive course of. It isn’t the identical means for everyone.” After which we get this amorphous thought actually popping out of the pandemic right here. When everybody made that shift to on-line, it was “how briskly can I do it? How little can I put in?”

You get big quantities of grace, however there’s solely this one reply, and if you happen to bought it unsuitable, you retain answering the query over and over, so that you get it proper. You then go to the following one. And that in our artwork and craft, that actual thought of there’s not only one solution to do it and that the artistry actually is within the the way you do it’s type of problematic for a few of them and causes stress as a result of a few of these formal years in highschool, it was you simply wanted to have a solution, you simply must have the best reply. That is all it must be. I see this from a few of them, too, is “I do it as soon as and I am carried out. I needn’t observe do it once more. Why are you asking me to do it once more? For those who’re asking me to do it once more, then I am poor, then I’m not good, then I am not this stuff”— and making an attempt to persuade a scholar that, no, what we’re speaking about is you are at a great degree, however we need to make you to a fantastic or wonderful degree, and that’s our objective of partaking a course of, and that it’s a course of. And simply doing it as soon as and being good just isn’t sufficient to essentially get to approach, to essentially get to repeatability and sustainability.

And I feel that is one of many greatest issues we have type of had. I get that loads in my starting performing lessons and even in my introduction lessons with college students who aren’t within the main itself. This concept of “I simply need to give you the best reply after which neglect about it.”

Jennifer: Yeah, nuance is basically difficult proper now. Nuance is troublesome and, I imply, that is the place we reside—proper?—as artists and storytellers is we reside in that house of uncertainty and complexity and having to get rid of a number of sides of an argument or of a narrative and nuance is basically difficult proper now. And once more, I feel coming from this house of our college students are anxious as a result of they’ve been advised proper and unsuitable for a really very long time, and so that is what they’re searching for. And in artwork making as a course of, Marcus, which you had been speaking about, you must have interaction in a course of meaning you must ask questions, and extra necessary, I feel, you must be comfy in discomfort.

Marcus: Sure.

Jennifer: It’s important to be comfy in that house of not understanding. And sadly, and admittedly, I do not suppose that that is solely instructing theatre. I feel that is true throughout increased ed typically—

Marcus: I might agree.

Jennifer: Is that increased ed is underneath assault proper now, and we see it in every single place. Specifically, the humanities are underneath assault, and the humanities are underneath assault as majors which can be meaningless or pointless, and it’s extremely troublesome, I feel, to be a scholar in these fields today and listen to that after which have anyone like me or anyone such as you Marcus, you Elyzabeth telling our college students that they should be okay not understanding. So it is virtually like they’re being hit by either side. The world is saying you must know what you are going to be once you graduate, and you must have a clearly outlined profession, and you must have a path that may make you cash and purchase you medical insurance. In the meantime, what they’re enthusiastic about, which is artwork making just isn’t that, and it is by no means been that and it could possibly’t be that, proper? So I assume my massive query, how do you educate a teen at this time the right way to be okay with discomfort?

Elyzabeth: I am seeing increasingly more overlap in quite a lot of these conversations with college students who actually wrestle with discomfort and do not need to be uncomfortable.

Jennifer: Yeah. And there is not any reply as effectively. I imply, particularly in playwriting, Elyzabeth, as you recognize, there’s your play. And I get scenes and performs from my college students and so they’re like, “Is it good?” And I am like, “I am having fun with it very a lot, however is that this the play that you really want?” I imply, that is the factor, proper? Is there’s this sense of this actual want for exterior validation in each means and that I feel, once more, going again to my preliminary remark about anxiousness, I feel that then feeds into their sense of being anxious as a result of they simply need to do it the best means.

Marcus, what you stated about checkboxes actually resonated with me as effectively as a result of that can be, I feel as a trainer these days what we’re given, I imply, we’re given checkboxes, we’re given studying outcomes we’re given… It’s important to fulfill this explicit knowledge level, after which based mostly on these details, then selections can be made shifting ahead. Whereas I went into schooling wanting these particular person connections with college students and eager to make a distinction within the classroom and get into the weeds with them concerning the issues that I like about this artwork type, that are related to nuance, complexity, all the issues that we have introduced up as points now; these are the issues I like concerning the artwork. So it is actually laborious, I feel, to navigate that these days as each a trainer and a scholar.

Marcus: I feel one of many troublesome issues, going again to the thought of discomfort, significantly I discover it attention-grabbing within the motion class particularly after we’re partaking our our bodies differently and that there is a disconnect between being uncomfortable bodily and being in ache and never having the ability to acknowledge the distinction between the 2. It’s uncomfortable since you’ve not engaged your physique in that means earlier than. It isn’t that you simply’re really in bodily ache, however not having the ability to inform the distinction between the 2 actually harkens again to type of what we’re speaking about. I do not prefer to be uncomfortable.

I joke with my college students on a regular basis. I’m a creature of consolation, so I am sporting garments that I really feel comfy in, however the artwork does require us to reside on the perimeters so as to develop and get higher, and being keen to step out of that consolation zone will be fairly completely different or troublesome, and I make them cringe. I am going to this concept of math. All proper, so most of you perceive fundamental math. If I stated, “Two plus two equals what?” A big portion of them are going to go, “4.” And I’ll go, “Is that the one solution to get to the quantity 4 if we’re partaking in math?” And naturally, everyone knows it is not.

There’s tens of millions of the way: we are able to maintain it easy or we are able to make it tremendous complicated. And getting them to know that we nonetheless get the identical final result, we nonetheless get to 4, however the journey wherein we’re partaking must be your journey and that is the artistry to it. The way you select to get there? Are you going to make use of features or chance, fractions, algorithms? Are you going to do all that or are you going to remain easy?

And the way you select to do it says about you what kind of artist you need to be. And perhaps you begin easy after which get extra complicated, after which perhaps you come back again to being extra easy. However that at all times, you are getting again to that concept that you really want. It is 4, and the answer is 4. That is our efficiency, our manufacturing, our final result, our play. We’re nonetheless attending to that desired final result, however actually getting them to be freer within the understanding of the journey to get there, there’s not simply the a method and that they should be type of keen to decide on the right way to get there. And it is not an task or a step, or it is that as they get extra expertise and encourage, and perhaps the primary eighteen billion occasions we strive it, we do not get to 4, however finally we’ll as a result of we all know that is the place we’re headed to. We all know it is the play itself or the manufacturing or the end result that we’re looking for, however there’s bought to be freedom to fail and there is bought to be freedom.

And I am going again to that evaluation you are speaking about. Oh my gosh, I agree with you a lot that actually with my college students at the moment I am going, “While you end an performing class, it is not likely ‘are you a great actor or a nasty actor by the point you are carried out?’ It is, ‘did you full the part components which can be requisite? Did you present up on time? Did you choose a monologue? Was it memorized? Did you current it however we’re not attending to the standard of it or did your use of approach, was there higher selections contained in the approach we’re simply going, did you have interaction it?’” And that is actually the place we’re at evaluation. After which actually type of encouraging the scholars to resolve, do you need to be an artist or do you not? You may have a ability, however simply having a ability does not imply you are good and actually convincing them on that finish. And it is actually laborious with our present evaluation mannequin as a result of we won’t get to that a part of it.

And I feel it is troublesome to persuade college students who’ve spent a very long time checking the field or solely having one reply or being taught to a check to go—

Jennifer: Or getting the A. You may’t advance except you get an A.

Marcus: You are so on it. I feel again to earlier this semester, I had somebody who goes, “You gave me a ninety-four as an alternative of 100. Why?” And wished me to justify. And I take a look at them, I am going, “You had an A. What’s the precise situation right here? Let’s take a look at the evaluation software. Which half had been you not good in?”

Elyzabeth: I knew that we needed to have this dialog as a result of I am listening to so many theatre educators speak about work ethic and the challenges of discovering a work-life stability. We’re seeing the trade having these conversations as extra theatres try to rethink rehearsal schedules and the lengthy hours that we work. I feel we’re tasked with not simply coaching our college students and their craft, however we even have to show them the right way to present up and the right way to do the work. And that appears to be an enormous problem proper now, particularly post-COVID.

What sort of challenges have you ever seen in your division with regard, I assume, particularly to dedication and scholar buy-in and simply displaying up?

Jennifer: That is a superb query as a result of we’re having these discussions proper now as a school and making an attempt to determine the right way to amend and evolve, and I exploit that time period very particularly, evolve our insurance policies for issues like participation and displaying up and attendance and all the elements of doing this work that we type of assumed had been simply no-brainers. After all you are going to go to class; in fact you are going to…

And once more, I feel we do blame the pandemic for lots and rightly so. I imply it’s such an enormous disruption in the way in which human beings join, utilizing that time period within the current tense. And I feel that there is so many ramifications of that which can be simply now turning into identified. And so now we’re in that very same place, I feel, of making an attempt to find out this stability between rigor and beauty that we’ve been coping with I feel for some time. After which the pandemic exploded the entire thing. What does it imply to really do the work?

To me, it is a pendulum swing. I feel that the pandemic not solely inspired the swinging in the other way, I feel it shoved it in the other way as a result of there was a lot downtime and empty time and time of being on this very anxious place the place you do not know what the following day goes to deliver, not to mention the following week or the following month, and making an attempt to navigate that as a scholar who’s anticipated to do issues is hard.

After which add to that the calls for that this enterprise have positioned on us actually since day one… I imply, I feel again to my time as an intern. After I graduated undergrad, I used to be an intern at Indiana Repertory Theatre. And I liked it. It was so superb. I realized a lot, however I labored a median of ninety hours every week, ninety-seven hours, I imply silly stuff. I slept within the theatre typically. So I personally am on this bizarre house of reckoning with myself, I feel, making an attempt to determine for my college students what’s a legitimate work ethic as a result of all of us, I feel, our work ethics going into this entire factor, we’re fairly screwed. I imply, we do not need to be dishonest to our college students concerning the world that they are coming into and concerning the enterprise that they are coming into, which is tremendous aggressive and can stay so.

I like, love that my college students need to change the world. I actually, actually do. I like that they need to graduate and go on the market and never solely change issues philosophically for just about every part, but additionally logistically, proper? They need to work for corporations that do not do ten out of twelve. They need to begin their very own theatres and be capable to pay all people not solely simply dwelling wages, however unbelievable wages; and I need them to do this. I so need them to do this. I do not know the right way to educate them how to do this.

Marcus: Nicely, I feel what you are saying is 100%, quite a lot of what I am seeing. We’ve got a disconnect typically right here between that concept and motion and that or an actual understanding of the enterprise aspect. So sure, do I want that every one my college students might exit and have an organization and make no matter greater than the dwelling wage is or… After all, in fact, I do.

Jennifer: Sure, go do it.

Marcus: There’s this actual disconnect to the thought of how a lot stuff prices or what is actually a dwelling wage. I had a scholar who. they had been doing a struggle contract, and it was actually for them within the room, it was ten hours’ value of labor, and so they paid him a set quantity, and I stated, “How a lot did they pay you?” And he is like, “It was $500.” I used to be like, “Okay, so what’s your criticism right here?” And he is like, “Nicely, I want a dwelling wage.” And I went, “Nicely, the job was three days of rehearsal, what number of hours?” And he’s like, “Nicely, it was like ten hours whole.” I am like, “Okay, effectively how a lot prep time did you must put in? So how a lot did you make an hour?” And he is doing it out. I am like, “That is greater than I make as a professor.” I imply, you are not getting medical insurance, you recognize—

Jennifer: Don’t get me began on that one.

Marcus: However it’s type of placing some issues in context. And I used to be like, “For those who had been working a forty-hour week, how a lot is {that a} yr?” And type of pondering in that, and it is like, I do not need you to not make that cash. However then there’s an actual disconnect between, effectively, you’ve got been out of faculty for 2 years; this is the amount of cash you are making. This is somebody who’s been working for twenty, twenty-five, thirty years who has much more expertise with you; what sort of cash ought to they be making? Is that this a viable, workable mannequin? And understanding it is enterprise. I feel there’s nonetheless a disconnect between that concept of sure, I feel all of us need that.

We have made the swap right here. You introduced up technical rehearsals. I began it final yr and we simply completed the tech course of once more this yr that we’re not doing twelve out of twelves. We have made a swap…

Jennifer: Yeah, we’re not doing that both.

Marcus: We have expanded tech, so there’s extra days of tech, however we have capped them within the weekdays. It is like three days at three hours after which two days on the weekend the place it is six hours and we do a straight six if it was an fairness contract. So it is really 5 hours of labor and an hour break type of in there and making an attempt to determine can we nonetheless get all of the work that we do, however we’re nonetheless ensuring that everybody will get sleep, everybody sitting within the water, we’re checking in on individuals. No one’s to the place the place they’re tremendous fried. And that is not simply our college students. That is actually us, too, as a result of I do suppose that we return to—

Jennifer: Completely. Sure.

How can we now assist you determine the way in which to work that permits you to achieve success?

Marcus: One of many pandemic points is I do not forget that for me, one of many greatest struggles was now I am not simply instructing in a single or two completely different ranges on the identical time; I am now additionally doing that for 3 completely different modalities—in a web-based, a hybrid, and an in-person—and making an attempt to interact learners who be taught a number of other ways and never simply sticking to 1 means of instructing and the stress that that actually type of places into the method, too, that actually taking a look at an teacher’s psychological well being in that course of as effectively, that I feel that a few of our college students nonetheless miss within the course of too. They’re very keenly privy to their expertise throughout this however aren’t very cognizant or conscious that they weren’t the one ones who skilled this and that this was a world situation and that everyone skilled this and that we’re all negotiating. How can we come again, and the way can we have interaction?

And I do suppose that there is an consciousness. I do know that most individuals I’ve encountered—the 2 of you actually are included on this, getting to speak to you—is that there is an consciousness and a want to interact, however not a transparent path to treatment. And I feel that that is a part of the exploration for us, that going again to the tech schedule right here, for me, I am making an attempt one thing completely different. Certainly one of my different friends goes to interact this mannequin the following time, however I do have one other peer who’s like, “No, that is not what I need to do.” So they are going to get expertise with each, which goes to be actually, I feel, good in some methods. So it is not this massive shock once they get out as a result of I am taking a look at quite a lot of main regional theatres. A few of them try to alter, however a few of them aren’t.

Jennifer: Yeah, yeah.

Marcus: And the way can we negotiate that, and the way can we operate? And I am going again to psychological well being: one of many issues I’m, as teacher, I am actually consciously making an attempt to interact is it is not denying that you simply perhaps have a studying incapacity or anxiousness or another psychological well being situation that perhaps prevents you partaking the identical means perhaps a few of your friends do. It is going, okay, you could have this. How can we have interaction it? How can we now assist you determine the way in which to work that permits you to achieve success? It isn’t denying it, it is not something like that. However it’s additionally understanding that on this trade, if you happen to select to do it, the play opens on this date, proper? That is not shifting. That is the day we’re open. So the work must be carried out by this timeframe. How can we assist you to discover a solution to work wherein you’re profitable giving this stuff that it is advisable negotiate for your self? Or whether or not that is psychological well being, bodily well being, bodily limitation, something like that, how do you now have interaction that?

And that a part of your school expertise must be partaking that concept, however inherently meaning you are going to wrestle. You are going to fail except you are that fortunate one that the primary stab you get it proper. I am not that particular person.

Jennifer: Proper. Nicely, and that is at all times us. Yeah, that is at all times a misnomer too. Even if you happen to get it proper the primary time, likelihood is that is luck. That is not—

Marcus: Is it repeatable? Is it sustainable?

Jennifer: Sure, precisely. And I feel that that is so many nice factors and what you simply stated, Marcus, it is an angle shift. So, it is not like we are able to repair every part for them. I feel the query is doing precisely what you had been saying, Marcus, about how can we have interaction the considerations that they’ve, the problems that they’ve, and encourage them to confront them, work with them, not attempt to change them essentially, however acknowledge that the work is what it’s? We will change it perhaps a bit of bit, however on the finish of the day, what you are speaking about doing is not essentially making theatre. So we’re taking a look at making an attempt to encourage the scholars to aspire to do the factor that we love and that we wish them to like and interact with as effectively, and to work by way of the obstacles that they’ve and to help them as a lot as we are able to in navigating these obstacles, however then additionally understanding that that is part of your particular person course of, that that is what that is going to be.

And the opposite factor I will say about that is that, once more, going again to how a lot I like my college students and the way a lot I do need them to alter the world, the purpose I need to make about that is that theatre artists, whether or not we have been doing this without end or whether or not we’re first beginning out, for my part, we’re all on this collectively. We’re all on this collectively. There was an attractive factor really on HowlRound that introduced up Zelda Fichandler and a few of that and simply this sense of we’re all artists and have been doing this for therefore lengthy, and we love this a lot; and actually the battle we’ve just isn’t with one another, nevertheless it’s with exterior perceptions of this trade that, in reality, we must be keen, as a result of it is a ardour venture, and we must be keen to work eighty-seven hours every week on this.

And albeit, I do. I imply, if you happen to depend the time that I spend occupied with the work I am doing and making an attempt to resolve in my mind and that form of background vitality that all of us have making an attempt to resolve these issues, perhaps I am not actively occupied with them, however they’re at all times there, proper? For those who attempt to put a greenback quantity on that, it’s my life. Sure, I’m consumed by what I do as a result of I like it a lot, however that does not imply it is value much less, proper?

Elyzabeth: You guys have each form of touched on shifting the way in which you rehearse and taking away rethinking the ten out of twelve. What different methods have you ever or your departments put in place to assist tackle a few of these points by way of getting college students to indicate up or balancing that work-life stability or their psychological well being? Are there every other adjustments that you’ve got made inside your departments to assist make it a more healthy surroundings?

Marcus: I feel there’s two issues: one inside the division after which one I am type of doing alone that is spreading a bit of bit. I feel the primary one is we’re actually making an attempt to ascertain this concept of clear expectation and establishing the thought of once you full a job otherwise you end what you are engaged on, the following issues that occur is you come to the particular person and go, what’s subsequent? And so that you’re continually going, “Nicely, what’s subsequent? What’s subsequent? What’s subsequent?” that even if you happen to’ve accomplished this, there’s at all times one thing else. And that is the expectation and being clear in that.

I feel that a few of my college students, after I first get them, they like to interact within the what I will name the wiggle room on that. It is like, effectively, you did not clearly talk otherwise you did not say what the factor is. They usually’re like, “It is in your syllabus, man. Cannot get any clearer than this. It is easy sentence construction.”

However I feel that being tremendous clear as a course of over time, so taking a look at what we’re taking a look at is basically our first engagement perhaps in a freshman yr. How can we have interaction that sophomore yr, how can we have interaction that junior yr, a continued development of this concept of what is subsequent. Coupled with that, one of many issues I am making an attempt to do proper from the get-go with my college students is basically encouraging them to be egocentric of their schooling and collaborative of their artwork.

So egocentric within the schooling is basically why you are within the room, working in that class, just isn’t permitting different individuals within the classroom to drag away or take awa.y letting their anxiousness, letting their points or they’re letting… they’re extra apprehensive about what is going on to occur after class or that evening or this weekend, infect you in that method and permitting that for the fifteen minutes or an hour and fifteen minutes that you simply’re within the studio classroom with me, that you’re actually partaking for that period of time after which partaking these different issues outdoors of the room and that after we get to the rehearsal house, you’re then shifting from being egocentric to being collaborative.

And that understanding the distinction between the 2 and people areas, and it is one thing I’ve actually tried to interact. I incorporate into the rehearsal course of. I speak about it on a regular basis, and it is actually about goal-making and that actually understanding within the classroom house, the second you step in, you must have a objective for that day, and that the objective for that day would not should be big. It is actually if you happen to squeeze each your fingers collectively, like your thumb and your index finger, regardless of how tight you squeeze, there’s nonetheless house. And that over time, if you happen to did that a lot enchancment each day over a calendar yr, you could have measurable enchancment, and that they discuss to me. Generally I get repetitive, and I am like, “I am repetitive as a result of I want you to imagine me, and you do not imagine me but. You’ll finally since you hear it on a regular basis and that you simply’re seeing it not simply and listening to it, however you are getting it in observe, you are getting it within the classroom, you are getting it within the rehearsal room, you are getting it in interactions within the foyer the place we’re speaking about this thrilling factor we simply noticed,” and that, actually, that two-fold factor I imagine will work.

I simply suppose it takes time of adjusting that tradition. We’re nonetheless so early in determining that tradition that it is not completely in there but, however I see a distinction between perhaps our juniors and seniors who’re actually on the coronary heart of COVID lessons versus perhaps our incoming freshmen who’re far more like, “Oh, okay, yeah, I am not going to let… I need this, and if I need to do that, then I must…”

We’re seeing a few of that distinction, in order that tradition is beginning to change, however it’s… I want it was like how they see it: one and carried out. I completed the factor, so now I am carried out. And this concept of repetitive nature to it, as everyone knows, is course of, and that over time course of wins out. It will get us to the place we need to go.

Jennifer: Marcus, identical to what you stated, I do really feel prefer it’s enhancing a bit of, little bit by way of, I feel the scholars that we’re getting now who, sure, they misplaced quite a lot of stuff in the course of the pandemic, however they did not lose as a lot of the quintessential stuff that I feel these preliminary few lessons misplaced. Highschool graduations, these moments of transition, and people actually human rituals that you simply form of must mark that second once you stop turning into a child and begin turning into an grownup. I imply, that is to not say that it is a checkbox, and now I am an grownup at this time, however have you learnt what I am saying? I imply, I feel there was simply quite a lot of that that was taken away, and that was actually acute for me and my household as a result of my oldest was a member of the category of 2020, and so along with type of navigating his struggles by way of all of this, I used to be in a position to get a wider view, I feel, of what a few of our college students had been coping with as effectively.

So, concerning what we’ve been doing to deal with a few of this, I feel sure, completely Marcus what you had been speaking about and looking out on the notion of course of and utilizing that as an anchor to essentially encourage the scholars to stretch and be okay with these locations of discomfort. We’ve got tried to be extra intentional about not solely the variety of tasks that we do, however the time that these tasks take. And fairly than shifting all people in and in and out and in and out out, increase, increase, increase, increase, increase, we’re making an attempt to supply a bit of bit extra space inside these tasks that we do.

And moreover, we even took away a present, and since it is a podcast you possibly can’t see, however I am utilizing air quotes: we “took away” a present, a manufacturing, and we provided that house for brand spanking new works occasions. And so these are much less taxing, in fact, on our manufacturing areas, however in addition they supply alternatives for college kids who write performs and devise and create work that haven’t been there earlier than. So in essence, by “taking away” a extra conventional manufacturing course of and utilizing that house that was created to serve a unique group of scholars, that has been type of a win-win in a lot of methods.

Now, we’re nonetheless type of within the technique of making an attempt to outline what meaning, however I feel the intention is basically good. And the opposite factor I will say is extra of an angle that we’re making an attempt to foster extra so than we’ve up to now. It is at all times been the intention of our program to essentially educate the entire particular person. And a part of that requires an understanding that there is a stress at all times between competitors and collaboration, particularly in an enormous program the place there’s X variety of alternatives. You get all of the performing college students and so they’re, and it is like, “Who’s going to get what position?” And blah, blah, blah.

And there is this sense, and I feel going again to that checkbox mentality, Marcus, you talked about earlier, there’s this sense that what we do, significantly within the performing and musical theatre worlds, it is a zero-sum sport, that if anyone will get one thing, then I did not get it, proper? And it is a sacrifice for me to ensure that this particular person. And so we’re actually making an attempt to emphasise the collaborative side of this enterprise and the way we’re all on this collectively, and we’re all making artwork, and we’re all making an attempt to navigate our personal aggressive natures in relation to this. And so what do you do, how do you deal with it when you aren’t getting what you need?

As a result of the actual fact of the matter is that is 95 p.c of your time on this trade is you aren’t getting what you need. You get the rejection. You get the “no”. You hear no on a regular basis. And so actually being acutely aware with our college students about what it means to navigate these worlds, in addition to the opposite stuff, that that is a ability that you’ll take with you into the trade, and what higher time to begin studying that than now? However there is a solution to do it that is sleek. There is a solution to do it that’s uplifting. There is a means to do this that may turn into part of your story.

So I feel these are two issues we’re doing right here. Logistically, we’re experimenting in lessons with no screens, which in an performing class, in fact, it is type of a no brainer. You haven’t any screens. However we’re additionally experimenting in our script evaluation lessons, in our historical past lessons and the playwriting lessons. What does it imply? Yeah, let’s print stuff out once more. So after we deliver it into class and we’re really wanting on the phrases on the web page, we’re not distracted by so many different issues.

And that may be a wrestle typically for these of us who’re lecturers as effectively, as a result of we need to be accessible, we need to observe the principles, we need to save paper and blah, blah, blah. However on the identical time, we’re making an attempt to satisfy our college students the place they’re, which is distracted 100% of the time, however we’re additionally making an attempt to encourage them to do different issues and various things.

I attempt to domesticate a way of this on a regular basis, however what that additionally means is that you may be harm, you will be rejected. Vulnerability will be actually powerful. However it’s additionally the way in which I feel to reside a extremely massive life.

Elyzabeth: Nicely, I need to thanks each for providing up your time and your experiences at this time. This has been a fantastic dialog.

As we wrap up, there are such a lot of challenges and transitions that we’re coping with, and I feel looking for wholesome options for… what would you want your college students to remove from their time in your program, and the way do you hope that their coaching will serve them each on and off stage?

Jennifer: I discuss concerning the… Generally I say it is a love affair with this enterprise, that you’ve got a love affair with this enterprise, that typically it is nice. And I prefer to say that the overwhelming majority of time, it is nice, however then there are additionally occasions once you’re arguing together with your important different, which on this case occurs to me doing theatre, proper? And never solely is doing theatre course of, I feel that the lifetime of an artist can be a course of. You are navigating your time on this world, and you’ve got chosen to do it as an artist, and there is not any better present. And it is also very, very difficult too. And I encourage them at each step of the way in which to withstand the checkbox, to withstand the it’s fill-in-the-blank or “I’m fill-in-the-blank at all times and without end.” And once you set up it, then that is what it’s.

And that’s… that is not life. A sense of security, uncertainty. And you may really feel secure in locations the place you recognize what’s what or the place you suppose what’s what, however having been on this earth longer than my college students, and I do not need to be the previous fart saying “get off my garden,” however on the identical time, the thrill of my life, absolutely the ardour that I’ve for being a storyteller and all the superb issues which have occurred to me are due to, I attempt to domesticate a way of this on a regular basis, however what that additionally means is that you may be harm, you will be rejected. Vulnerability will be actually powerful. However it’s additionally the way in which I feel to reside a extremely massive life.

And so yeah, I’ll do every part I can that will help you with the problems that you’re going through by way of psychological well being challenges and anxiousness, and all of those new methods we’ve of speaking about are struggles, and people are so worthwhile, and so they’re so actual that I additionally don’t desire these struggles to stop you from partaking totally within the beautiful lifetime of being an artist.

Marcus: I feel one of many issues for me, I come again to, I discuss to quite a lot of my college students about this concept that maybe by the point they’re ten years out from commencement, there’s not as many individuals nonetheless engaged within the artwork or craft as there have been at commencement day, however there’s nothing unsuitable with that. And that is a part of the journey. And actually what I need them to remove from right here is this concept of dwelling a life on goal, and that it is this concept that as an artist we do, we’ve goal, there are issues we try to perform and do and converse to and interact. And that you are able to do that as a trainer, as a banker, as an accountant, as “insert different job right here.” And that the talents that you simply’re getting right here after we’re taking a look at communication, empathy, the power to operate in an surroundings that is not a solo surroundings and dealing with others, you could have all of these abilities.

And in quite a lot of circumstances, once you stroll into an interview house or something like that, you are in a position to run laps round so many individuals who perhaps have a unique diploma observe or began out their journey a bit of bit completely different than you. However the secret’s actually, are you dwelling that massive life, as was stated? Are you dwelling as afterthought or because the forethought? Are you shifting in direction of one thing or letting issues occur to you? And one of many issues I really need them to simply operate, it’s okay to fail. It is okay to choose your self up and reinvent your self and do the various things, however so as to have the possibility to reside that extraordinary life, you must strive, you must do, you must reside a lifetime of goal. You bought to maneuver ahead. You may’t wait. And I really need them to take that, even when it is not finally in theatre or in movie, or in our artwork and craft, however I simply imagine the talents that they get are so marketable throughout so many various issues.

There’s not a single, I am pondering again by way of—I have been at this college for fifteen years. I used to be at CUNY Kingsborough for nearly 5. I used to be on the College of Alabama for 3 years—that I am unable to suppose again to a single scholar that did not have interaction and interact goal and attempt to do it, who would not have success not directly, form, or type. I do not see failure there. Possibly it took an extended journey time to get to the place they wished to go, however they’re all profitable, and it is simply convincing them or getting them to imagine or purchase in that they’ll.

Elyzabeth: Nicely, I need to thanks each a lot for sharing your time with us. I feel it is a actually necessary dialog. It is one which I really feel like retains arising time and time once more, so hopefully others can discover some inspiration in what you guys have shared with us about your experiences in your packages.

Jennifer: Thanks, Elyzabeth.

Marcus: Thanks very a lot.

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